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Friday Night Apologetics 9/21/07

Calvinism Series Part 8 - Unconditional Election 2

Welcome to another edition of Friday Night Apologetics live study in Paltalk.  In our previous study we discussed Matthew 21 & 22 with Romans 9:30-33 and Romans 10, and in this study we dived right into Romans 8:29 examining what the text says about God foreknowledge, predestination and election.  Those who hold to what is called reformed theology, what has been called doctrines of grace, 5 points of Calvinism known as the TULIP, use Romans 8:29-30 to prove that God has chosen people to be saved based upon His determination and good pleasure, and that no one chooses God period.  In this discussion we examined what these verses say and what words mean, and we had a very good turn out in our chat room, and amazingly we had a good amount of people in the room that hold to reformed theology.  I believe this audio discussion was one of the most interactive studies we have had yet with those of reformed theology and those who are non-reformed in theology.  The main discussion was Romans 8 but as normal people bounced around here and there, and some of it was addressed but not all of it.  In our next discussion we will be continuing in Romans moving on to chapter 9 talking more in depth about Isaac, Ishmael, Jacob, Esau, Pharaoh, and how all that proves or disproves the doctrine of Unconditional Election. (some of this was talked about briefly in this discussion)  If you have questions about this topic please check our previous study, or our Audio section where we have other audios on Calvinism, or our Calvinism section where we have various articles as well. 

You are invited to check out our blog discussion and share your comments and questions there.  Visit www.afcministry.blogspot.com to check out our current discussion and previous ones.

• NOTES from this study

"29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified." (Romans 8:29-31 NASB)

These verses clearly state that those who are predestined are those whom God foreknew and that they were predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. Calvinists teach that "foreknew" does not mean those whom God knew would choose Him but rather those God ordained to eternal life by His own decision. It is clear from the English that "foreknew" indicates a knowledge of something in advance. What is the Greek word and definition of "foreknew" here? The Greek word is "Proginosko" which means, "to perceive or recognize beforehand." (Lexical Aids To The New Testament, Dr. Spiros Zodhiates, #4267 Proginosko) Dr. Spiros Zodhiates states the following concerning Romans 8:29 and the word "foreknew": "This foreknowledge and foreordination in the Scripture is always unto salvation and not unto perdition. Therefore, it could be said that the Lord never foreordains anyone to be lost, but those who are saved as a result of their exercise of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ were known ahead of time and thus chosen unto God." (Lexical Aids To The New Testament, Dr. Spiros Zodhiates, #4267 Proginosko) It is clear that the Greek supports the understanding that God knows those who would come to Him.

Predestinate in Romans 8:30 is Proorizo #4309 – Dr. Spiros Zodhiates states the following: “In Romans 8:29 it is used with a personal object, the relative pron. hous (3739), whom, in the pl. This personal pron. applies also to the previous verb proegno (4267), foreknew. The translation is, “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate.” The purpose of this foreordination is expressed in the phrase, “to be conformed to the image of His Son.” (Lexical Aids To The New Testament, Dr. Spiros Zodhiates, #4309, Proorizo)

Dr. W. E. Vines states the following concerning Romans 8:29 and the word "foreknew": "Foreknowledge is not the same as predestination; the very sentence before us distinguishes the two. His foreknowledge marks out the persons, His predestination determines His purposes and acts on their behalf." (W. E. Vines Commentary on Romans 8:29) Dr. W. E. Vines makes a clear distinction between "Foreknowledge" (foreknew) and "Predestination." "Foreknowledge" is what God knows in advance and "Predestination" is what God works out in the believer's life to serve Him. The word "predestined" in Romans 8:29 is the Greek word "Proorizo" which means, "to determine or decree beforehand." The way that believers are "Predestined" is by God's "foreknowledge", therefore it is clear that the Bible teaches Predestination but not in the way that John Calvin or Calvinists teach.

Dr. H. A. Ironside wrote concerning predestination, "It is the Father who has predestinated us to the adoption of children. Nowhere in the Bible are people ever predestinated to go to hell, and nowhere are people ever predestinated to go to heaven. Look it up and see. We are chosen in Christ to share His glory for eternity, but predestination is always to some special place of blessing. Turn to Romans 8:29. Predestinated to what? Predestinated ‘to be conformed to the image of His Son.’ You see, predestination is not God from eternity saying ‘This man goes to Heaven and this man goes to hell.’ No, but predestination teaches me that when I have believed in Christ, when I have trusted Him as my Saviour, I may know on the authority of God that it is settled forever that some day I am to become exactly like my Saviour" (In the Heavenlies, Expository Addresses on Ephesians, pp. 34-35) http://www.feasite.org/Foundation/fbcfouri.htm

ELECTION (CHOICE)
The Bible says (Ephesians 1:4-6) that God chose the believer before the foundation of the world and that based on His foreknowledge, He has predestinated (mark out an horizon or plan ahead of time) the believer to be conformed to the image of His Son (Romans 8:29-30). We also believe that God offers salvation to all who will call on His Name (Romans 10:13). We also believe that God calls to Himself those who will believe in His Son, our blessed Lord Jesus Christ (I Corinthians 1:9). The Bible reveals an invitation (or call) to all, but clearly points out that only a few will accept it. Revelation 22:17 states: “and whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.” I Peter 1:2 says: “Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ.” Matthew 22:14 states: “For many are called, but few are chosen (elected).” (David Hocking, Hope For Today, Are you a Calvinist part 3 http://www.davidhocking.org/blog/?p=124 )

Awareness and anticipation of events before they occur. The words “foreknowledge” and “foreknow” are rarely used in the Bible, but the concept of God's foreknowledge is found throughout Scriptures. Other terms such as “election” and “predestination” are closely related to foreknowledge. In the New Testament, the verb “foreknow” comes from the Greek word proginosko; and the noun “foreknowledge,” from the Greek word prognosis...

Foreknowledge and Human Freedom Such statements raise the difficult theological question of human freedom. If God already knows in advance who will be saved or elected, does that not eliminate free human will? Does God predestine some people to salvation and others to damnation?

One major attempt to answer this question is associated with James Arminius (1560-1609) who argued, as did the pre-Augustinian church fathers, that God's foreknowledge is a prescient knowledge, that is, God knows in advance what a person's response will be, so He elects to salvation in advance those whom He knows will freely accept Christ. This Arminian view is called conditional predestination, since the predestination is conditioned on God's foreknowledge of the individual's acceptance or rejection of Christ.

Another major Christian tradition is the Augustine-Luther-Calvin tradition. This view claims that God's foreknowledge is not simply God's foreknowledge of faith. Rather, for God to foreknow means that His knowledge determines events. He predestines some to be saved, but not on the foreknowledge of how they will respond; rather in His foreknowledge He foreordains apart from any human response.

Both views are supported by texts from Scripture. While Romans 8:29-30 are key verses in any discussion of God's foreknowledge, it is perhaps more correct to interpret these verses in terms of the doctrine of assurance rather than of predestination. Paul's point in Romans 8:29-30 is not to discuss who is foreknown and predestined to be saved and who is not. This passage may naturally give rise to that question, but it does not lead to any one answer. The doctrine of predestination was developed in the reformed tradition in an attempt to solve problems raised by Paul's writings and by other biblical texts. Paul's concern in this passage was rather to assure the Christian readers that their security is based upon God's eternal purpose and not upon the Christian's initiative. Nothing, therefore, can separate them from God's love! (Foreknowledge, Holman Bible Dictionary)

God's work in ordaining salvation for people without their prior knowledge. Biblical Materials The English noun, predestination, does not occur in the Bible. The Greek verb translated predestinate occurs only four times in two passages of the Bible (Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:5,Ephesians 1:11). It is used in Acts 4:28 of human determination. The word means to determine before or ordain. On these minimal facts entire systems of doctrine have been built.

The references to predestination in Romans 8:29 and Romans 8:30 come in the midst of a section of Scripture on salvation and spiritual struggle. Was Paul saying that all of his experience, before becoming a Christian and after, God decided in such a way that Paul had nothing to do with it and no decision in it? These passages could be seen that way, but they need not be. They also can be seen as the struggle of human willfulness and divine purpose and guidance. I see these passages, especially in the light of Paul's other writings, as a real struggle in which Paul realized that God's purpose for us is good and that God's determination to help us is prior to all of our struggles. In Jesus Christ, God has set the pattern. Believers are to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. God's determination is particularly and eternally expressed in what Christ is. He is like what we are supposed to be like. God's Spirit will help us to be like Jesus.

In a discussion of election and predestination, questions about Jacob and Esau (Romans 9:13) arise, as do questions about God “hardening Pharaoh's heart” (Romans 9:17-18). These verses could be interpreted to mean that God beforehand had planned things out without any regard for human response. The worst scenario would suggest that God had taken a nice young Egyptian prince and turned him into a monster. Romans 9:13 could mean that God really hated Esau and played favorites among His children. I do not believe this is the proper way to understand these passages. Paul, their human author, is looking back. Interpretations are easier after the fact. Whereas God is no respecter of persons whom He has created, He does not violate the free will He gave to humankind. God works with it. A better interpretation of these passages is to say that God used what Esau and Pharaoh had become. Esau, a compulsive man who sought instant gratification of his desires, would not be the kind of person who becomes a patriarch. Pharaoh, a ruthless man, God confirmed and judged as an oppressor; Pharaoh's harsh and cruel acts were punished. In that punishment God received glory to Himself, even out of Pharaoh's disobedience. (Predestination, Holman Bible Dictionary)

• Scriptural Truth

The above references of information was shared to demonstrate that what I am sharing is not of myself, but that there are others who have solid Biblical scholarship who believed the same.  With saying that, that of itself proves nothing and I am sure one could post numerous references from reformers on what they believe.  The point is that I am not sharing just what I personally believe, but what I see within the clearness of God's Word and within the context of the Scriptures.  I believe the references (people) above are reliable sources in which many upon many people within the Christian church use for Biblical studies.  When examining the Word of God it important to study the context of the Scriptures, what words mean, and at times check into solid resources who can give additional insights concerning the Scriptures.    Hope you enjoy the this discussion and that you check out our other discussions.  Visit our blog at www.afcministry.blogspot.com to interact and read what others are saying.